What's different about this Global Debt Crisis?
Jan Kregel, a former high level UN official and highly regarded economist specialising in development finance, and former finance minister of Colombia, José Antonio Ocampo, share their perspectives on this debt crisis compared to historic ones; they discuss the relationship between creditors and debtors, and highlight how climate change needs us to rethink debt resolution mechanisms altogether.
From the International Development Economics Associates - a network of progressive economists who centre the perspectives and needs of the Global South.
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Transcript
Hi there.
Julians Amboko:Welcome to Economics from the South, where we rethink economics, give a voice to marginalized communities,
Julians Amboko:and come up with lasting solutions to ensure a fairer, more sustainable future for all of us.
Julians Amboko:I'm your host, Julian Samboko, a Kenyan business journalist.
Julians Amboko:This series is brought to you by the International Development Economics Associates, a network of economists who challenge
Julians Amboko:the way the world is run and put forward viable alternatives that center the perspectives and needs of the Global South.
Julians Amboko:We're focusing on two really important research areas for ideas.
Julians Amboko:The International Debt Crisis and the Global Financial Architecture, Episode 2.
Julians Amboko:In March this year, that's 2024, I went to a really insightful conference in Accra, Ghana, organized by Ideas
Julians Amboko:on African Debt, where I met two economic giants, people who for decades have brought refreshing, compelling
Julians Amboko:arguments to the table and made a real difference in policy.
Julians Amboko:I'm delighted to be joined by
Julians Amboko:José Antonio Ocampo: I'm José Antonio Ocampo, now professor at Columbia University, but previously head of the United
Julians Amboko:Nations Economic Commission for Latin America and the Caribbean and the Department of Economic and Social Affairs,
Julians Amboko:and in my country, Colombia, Minister of Finance twice and Minister of Agriculture and Minister of Planning.
Jan Kregel:I'm jan Kregel.
Jan Kregel:I teach development finance at Tallinn Technological University in Tallinn, Estonia, and at the New
Jan Kregel:School for Social Research in New York City.
Julians Amboko:This is not the first debt crisis we are talking about.
Julians Amboko:There have been some in the past.
Julians Amboko:What are some of the differences you see that could start with you, Ocampo?
Julians Amboko:José Antonio Ocampo: Well, there have been many crises, uh, I mean, I'm from Latin America and we
Julians Amboko:have had, uh, many, many crises, uh, but this one,
Julians Amboko:I think what is specific about Africa, uh, is that it's not official financing that is a major issue,
Julians Amboko:or the only issue, but also private financing.
Julians Amboko:Uh, which was not true, let's say, of the crisis of the 1980s and the early 1990s, which was more official
Julians Amboko:financing, although a few cases also private finance.
Julians Amboko:I think that's a big difference.
Julians Amboko:Not the America, the crisis of the 1980s was private financing.
Julians Amboko:You can say the price of the 1930s was private financing and the current situation for country
Julians Amboko:that are difficulties is also private finance.
Julians Amboko:Okay, your thoughts?
Jan Kregel:We can be even more extensive than that.
Jan Kregel:I mean, if you go back to the 19th century, the U.
Jan Kregel:S.
Jan Kregel:states issued bonds and they defaulted frequently.
Jan Kregel:On those bonds, J.
Jan Kregel:P.
Jan Kregel:Morgan ended up building his financial empire, selling bonds that defaulted.
Jan Kregel:New York City very recently went to a substantial debt crisis.
Jan Kregel:These are things which are endemic across not only states, but individual cities and also nations and now we're
Jan Kregel:looking basically at nations and the current crisis is one that has a little difference in terms of the kind of debt.
Jan Kregel:But the fact of having a crisis is a very common factor.
Julians Amboko:HIPC that's the highly indebted poor countries initiative.
Julians Amboko:Uh, it has been used to draw comparison with the current situation.
Julians Amboko:What's the difference between that one and this one?
Julians Amboko:José Antonio Ocampo: Well, again, is the nature of for sub Saharan Africa, the nature of the solution, because
Julians Amboko:the crisis of the 1990s or 1980s, 1990s, uh, which was, uh, essentially with official financing, uh, was
Julians Amboko:essentially managed with the multi debt relief of 2005.
Julians Amboko:I mean, there was the hipc initiative that you mentioned before, but the, I think the, the one that was, uh, very
Julians Amboko:strong with the multi, uh, multi debt relief because that included relief of, uh, multilateral financing, which
Julians Amboko:is something that is not common and actually has not been discussed even today, uh, for the current crisis.
Julians Amboko:Multilateral financing is financing from the development finance institutions,
Julians Amboko:the World Banks, the IMFs and the rest.
Julians Amboko:So there is a view that A lot of the debt resolution discussion right now, or the alleviation of debt
Julians Amboko:distress conversation focuses on placing the burden on the debtor countries and not so much on the creditors.
Julians Amboko:Is that a view you share?
Jan Kregel:Well, if you look at a debt relationship, you've got a debtor and you have a creditor, and presumably when
Jan Kregel:these things take place, they're supposed to be voluntary.
Jan Kregel:Now, in many cases, they're not.
Jan Kregel:They're not for two reasons.
Jan Kregel:One, the borrowing countries are faced with conditions in which they require support.
Jan Kregel:And without borrowing, they're not able to support domestic programs or not able to support the domestic population.
Jan Kregel:On the part of creditors, creditors, if they've already lent to a country and the country is
Jan Kregel:in difficulty, they're faced with a problem.
Jan Kregel:Either they have to cut off lending or they continue to lend in the hope that the country is going to recover.
Jan Kregel:So you have incentives on both sides in the beginning in order to try and extend the debt as long as you possibly can.
Jan Kregel:And eventually a point has to be reached where both the debtors and the creditors have to decide
Jan Kregel:that it's no longer in their interest to do that.
Jan Kregel:Now, for the creditor countries, it's a decision that, well, the debtor is probably never going to be able to meet the payments.
Jan Kregel:And for the borrowing country, it's that the conditions of repayment are just much too
Jan Kregel:onerous in order for political stability.
Jan Kregel:And that's when you end up at a point of crisis.
Julians Amboko:Right now, the conversation globally is we need to have a framework for responsible borrowing.
Julians Amboko:And responsible
Julians Amboko:José Antonio Ocampo: lending.
Julians Amboko:What would be your views on that?
Julians Amboko:As you said, we need responsible borrowing and responsible lending.
Julians Amboko:Now, in the case of the lending part, one of the issues that is crucially the participation of private sector lenders,
Julians Amboko:let's say both the banks on the one hand, but also the owners of the bonds that have been issued by countries.
Julians Amboko:But also in the case of official financing, one of the problems is that some of the official creditors don't want to reduce debts,
Julians Amboko:don't want, in the jargon of this debate, don't want haircuts.
Julians Amboko:And unfortunately, China seems to be on board.
Julians Amboko:Uh, and also with higher interest rates, uh, for Sub Saharan African countries.
Julians Amboko:Of course, uh, lenders have to think, uh, when, uh, the, what is the capacity of countries to pay.
Julians Amboko:Uh, but then when there is debt restructuring process, they have to participate actively in trying to find a solution.
Julians Amboko:Okay, but Professor Jan, let me ask you.
Julians Amboko:14 years ago, we had the principles of responsible lending drafted by the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development.
Julians Amboko:That's entered since we seem to have already principles in place.
Julians Amboko:Why doesn't it seem to be really front and center right now?
Jan Kregel:Well, this is basically the problem of any sort of debt contract.
Jan Kregel:I mean, you don't make a debt contract expecting the borrower to default, and there are always going to
Jan Kregel:be difficulties because you can't predict the future.
Jan Kregel:And most of the difficulties that we have are in terms of disappointed expectations in terms of that lending.
Jan Kregel:Now part of this problem is political, because if you're lending to a nation, a nation is May decide to change their policies.
Jan Kregel:So if you're a lender and you're lending at a term which is longer than the normal election cycle in a country, you always
Jan Kregel:have the risk that there's going to be a political change.
Jan Kregel:So you can set up as many conditions as you want to do, but you can't bind the hands of the governments who are taking the loans.
Jan Kregel:And neither can the lender impose on that borrower.
Jan Kregel:The conditions that started out with the loan.
Jan Kregel:Now that's simply in terms of a standard political process.
Jan Kregel:Now if we go beyond that, 20 years ago, we knew that there was an environmental crisis that was coming, but we presumed that
Jan Kregel:there was going to be some sort of Trend deterioration in the climate and two or three years ago, you started to see a number of
Jan Kregel:scientists saying, look, this is not a trend position any longer.
Jan Kregel:It's something that has the potential to go very quickly.
Jan Kregel:You're a lender.
Jan Kregel:You're lending to a country.
Jan Kregel:You take Well, you take Ghana.
Jan Kregel:Ghana has productions in terms of particular kinds of agricultural products, the historic one which is gold, and also the fact
Jan Kregel:of cocoa production, which in the beginning was considered to be a relatively poor commodity in terms of its ability
Jan Kregel:to generate revenues has now become very, very important.
Jan Kregel:One of them.
Jan Kregel:is doing reasonably well right now in terms of its price, or in fact, both of them.
Jan Kregel:Uh, but there's a distinct possibility that climate change could instantly eliminate, okay, the ability of the
Jan Kregel:Ghanaian government to use those exports in order to pay debt service, and automatically you have a debt crisis,
Jan Kregel:which neither side would have foreseen 10 or 15 years ago.
Julians Amboko:Professor
Julians Amboko:José Antonio Ocampo: Ocampo, the elephant in the room is about comparability of treatment.
Julians Amboko:Creditors will wait one another out to see who will blink first, who is the one who will accept to take a lower amount
Julians Amboko:than their initially agreed, what you're calling the haircut.
Julians Amboko:Um, How big a problem is this?
Julians Amboko:The problem is very severe, actually, because first of all, the private creditors don't want
Julians Amboko:to participate in the renegotiation process.
Julians Amboko:That's a significant problem for Sub Saharan Africa.
Julians Amboko:The multilateral debt relief or the multilateral institutions simply do not reduce debts, do not do air cuts.
Julians Amboko:And then the official financing, which is generally the one that is more general, let's say, in the, in
Julians Amboko:the renegotiations, now also are fairly reluctant for haircuts, including China, which is a major lender.
Julians Amboko:And then there is a problem of coordination because the solution has to be a common solution.
Julians Amboko:And that's why there has to be a very specific ad hoc initiative, uh, to manage this problem
Julians Amboko:because otherwise there will be no solution.
Jan Kregel:Yeah, and I think just to add on to this, when if you are a lender and there are a number of other lenders
Jan Kregel:to the same borrower, really what you're not negotiating is how much is going to be paid back, but the distribution of
Jan Kregel:what's going to be paid back amongst the various lenders.
Jan Kregel:And this does encourage this business of trying to hold out to get the maximum possible relative to the other lenders.
Jan Kregel:And that's simply.
Jan Kregel:Increases the difficulty in reaching a solution.
Julians Amboko:I'll just switch gears and talk about, uh, special drawing rights.
Julians Amboko:First of all, for those of us who might not be familiar with that, what are SDRs, or special drawing rights, and how do they come
Julians Amboko:into this conversation around debt distress and the resolution.
Julians Amboko:José Antonio Ocampo: Well, the special drawing rights is like, let's call it the money that
Julians Amboko:is issued by the International Monetary Fund.
Julians Amboko:I mean, all central banks issue money.
Julians Amboko:The money that is issued by the IMF, the International Monetary Fund, are special drawing rights.
Julians Amboko:For clarity, the special drawing rights are essentially foreign exchange reserves of central banks.
Julians Amboko:Uh, so the, the IMF issues them and gives them to central banks.
Julians Amboko:And so there are reserves, uh, like, you know, the, uh, let's say the U.
Julians Amboko:S.
Julians Amboko:treasury bonds that central banks could buy, or gold, you know, they decide to keep gold.
Julians Amboko:Uh, so, uh, so that's why I think, uh, the point is, uh, if it's a liquidity problem, uh,
Julians Amboko:you know, the central banks can use that money.
Julians Amboko:So they can either sell their, uh, U.
Julians Amboko:S.
Julians Amboko:treasury bonds, let's say, uh, sell their gold, uh, Or use the special drawing rights to pay to other central banks.
Julians Amboko:That's how, how it works.
Julians Amboko:Now, the problem, uh, of the special drawing rights is that how much countries receive, uh, depends on
Julians Amboko:their, the, uh, capital in the IMF, uh, which is more than 50%, uh, in the hands of developed countries.
Julians Amboko:And there is also, uh, a lot of money, uh, let's say for example, for the Arab country that don't, uh, you know, don't need.
Julians Amboko:So the, the money, uh, is largely not used at all.
Julians Amboko:I mean, my estimate is that maybe around 90 percent of the IMFs are not used at all.
Julians Amboko:Uh, developing countries do use them for payments to other central banks, and particularly the low income countries have
Julians Amboko:been, including Sub Saharan Africa, have been using them.
Julians Amboko:Now, the long term solution is let's change the composition of the issues of special drawing rights, so that the need
Julians Amboko:for that money, That should be one issue that should be taken into account and not only the, the, you know, the contribution
Julians Amboko:to the capital of the, of the International Monetary Fund.
Julians Amboko:That solution may be discussed.
Julians Amboko:I don't see it quite likely to be approved.
Julians Amboko:Now, the other solution that is being done is, okay, those special drawing rights are not being used.
Julians Amboko:By developed countries, let's use them to lend to developing countries.
Julians Amboko:Uh, that is a solution that is being partly used in a couple of funds managed by the IMF.
Julians Amboko:Uh, and it could be used on a broader scale by multilateral development banks.
Julians Amboko:So, let's say, Germany has a special domain rather is not using, so deposit them in the African
Julians Amboko:Development Bank or other development banks.
Julians Amboko:And that constitutes a, you know, funds that the African Development Bank can say.
Julians Amboko:Now, see, the interest rate for a special domain is low.
Julians Amboko:That, I think, could be a contribution to a relatively cheaper lending by the multilateral development banks.
Julians Amboko:All right.
Julians Amboko:I think it was mid 2021 on the back of the COVID 19 wreckage.
Julians Amboko:There was a whole discussion around we need to have reallocation, which has just been spoken to around SDRs.
Julians Amboko:Did it move the needle as far as debt resolution is concerned?
Jan Kregel:Well, the problem with the SDRs is that Nobody was ever quite certain exactly what they were supposed to do.
Jan Kregel:Now, when SDRs were created, the idea was that the global system was short on liquidity because of the way the U.
Jan Kregel:S.
Jan Kregel:balance of payments was evolving.
Jan Kregel:Now, interestingly enough, just after The IMF approved the creation of the SDRs, we had a flood of international liquidity.
Jan Kregel:And that's one of the reasons that they entered into difficulty right away, nobody needed them.
Jan Kregel:Uh, the other problem was whether the difficulty was really a question of SDRs Or a question
Jan Kregel:of solvency, or insolvency, is better to say.
Jan Kregel:Now, liquidity means what?
Jan Kregel:Well, liquidity means that, you know, you have a temporary shortage, okay?
Jan Kregel:Somebody didn't pay you last week, and you have to pay somebody today, so, you know, you have to borrow
Jan Kregel:a little bit of money to make good the opportunity.
Jan Kregel:Matching of those contracts over a week or a year.
Jan Kregel:Now, if you're in a position in which there is a basic change in your economic conditions, for example, go back to
Jan Kregel:the, uh, the example of primary commodities for a country like Ghana, if suddenly the Cocoa market should disappear.
Jan Kregel:People stopped eating chocolate bunnies for Easter and things like that.
Jan Kregel:What would happen?
Jan Kregel:If it's a liquidity crisis, the SDR is there.
Jan Kregel:You can go.
Jan Kregel:You can go to the IMF.
Jan Kregel:The SDRs can be used in order to sort of plug the hole until the cocoa bunny market.
Jan Kregel:It recovers, but if it never recovers, now you have a solvency problem, and the solvency
Jan Kregel:problem can't be solved by the SDR solution.
Jan Kregel:So this is the difficulty that you have in terms of the system that we're now looking at.
Jan Kregel:In many cases, the kinds of changes that we're going to be looking at, in particular climate changes and other things,
Jan Kregel:are not simply things that can be solved with liquidity.
Jan Kregel:That is, if there is a substantial change, I don't know, for example, in the, uh, levels of the, of the sea, the levels of
Jan Kregel:the ocean, we're sitting here, uh, on the coast, and eventually the property that we're sitting in is going to go to zero value.
Jan Kregel:Now, presumably, this generates tourist revenues.
Jan Kregel:If the tourist revenues disappear, then Ghana has lost a source of revenue that is going to be permanent.
Jan Kregel:It's not that the seas are going to go back down again to where they were, or at least not in my lifetime or in yours.
Jan Kregel:Yeah.
Jan Kregel:And increasingly, if you look at the climate crisis or the environmental crisis, these are changes which are going
Jan Kregel:to bring about losses in income that have no counterparty.
Jan Kregel:There's no revenue source.
Jan Kregel:And if you undertake government measures, which most governments will do in order to compensate
Jan Kregel:populations for the losses that they incur as the result of climate change, these are going to result.
Jan Kregel:in increases in debt stocks, which have no natural revenue sources for repayment.
Jan Kregel:So we're going to have to, in this sense, rethink very much this idea between liquidity and solvency because many of
Jan Kregel:the issues that we're going to have going forward are going to be increases in what we would call technical insolvency.
Jan Kregel:And that is a very different issue that the IMF is going to have to take care of.
Julians Amboko:Wonderful.
Julians Amboko:All right.
Julians Amboko:Thanks, So let's explore the impact of the debt crisis on financing for development.
Julians Amboko:José Antonio Ocampo: Well, the debt issue is an issue by itself that has to be solved as part of the
Julians Amboko:international financial architecture, uh, solutions.
Julians Amboko:But there is also the other question of additional financing.
Julians Amboko:Uh, in, uh, in, in, in issues like, for example, combating climate change, uh, or, uh, other issues.
Julians Amboko:Uh, and in that regard, let me say that the, there's probably more consensus, uh, on the second than the first.
Julians Amboko:On that, for example, the G20 has been silent, essentially, since 2001.
Julians Amboko:Uh, but in the case of multilateral development banks, uh, there was, uh, you know, some interesting proposals,
Julians Amboko:uh, to increase the financing for this thing that we economists call the global public goods, uh, which is
Julians Amboko:combating climate change or combating pandemics, et cetera.
Julians Amboko:Uh, and using concessional financing that is, you know, lower cost financing, longer term financing.
Julians Amboko:Okay.
Julians Amboko:And now, uh, the big question mark in that regard is the money.
Julians Amboko:That is required for to capitalize that the multilateral development banks, uh, and then the resources that they
Julians Amboko:need for the concessional part for the lower cost financing, let's say, that the, these institutions will be providing.
Jan Kregel:Yeah.
Jan Kregel:I mean, the, the problem financing for development is this balance that we've always had inside the United
Jan Kregel:Nations between the financing side and the trade side.
Jan Kregel:So, if you look at the beginning of the process that went on in the 1960s, the first proposals
Jan Kregel:were in terms of the development decade.
Jan Kregel:And the development decade came up with this commitment for developed countries to provide financing for developing countries.
Jan Kregel:And this is this famous 0.
Jan Kregel:7 of developed country GDP as the target.
Jan Kregel:Now that was Decided in a series of conferences and resolutions in 1961.
Jan Kregel:In 1964, the Latin American developing countries, and developing countries in general, came back and said,
Jan Kregel:well, this is all well and good that you give us all of this financing, but we're basically dependent for
Jan Kregel:our development on the sale of our primary commodities.
Jan Kregel:And if we look at the price of those primary commodities, tendentially they seem to be declining.
Jan Kregel:So we're in fact losing out in terms of the things we produce, and And what we're doing is we're borrowing from
Jan Kregel:developed countries in order to make up that difference.
Jan Kregel:And this is not a sustainable development strategy.
Jan Kregel:So UNCTAD was created as in 1964 in response to that trade side.
Jan Kregel:So we've always got this balance between the real conditions that pertain inside the country and the financing conditions.
Jan Kregel:And basically, in 64, what Raoul Prebyshev, the Secretary General of the first UNCTAD conference, you know, and
Jan Kregel:said, well, fine, you can give us all the money you want.
Jan Kregel:But if we can't produce enough in order to earn our way to development, then we're
Jan Kregel:simply going to borrow our way to development.
Jan Kregel:And in fact, this is what's happened.
Jan Kregel:And this is why we've had these series of debt crises since that.
Jan Kregel:So the problem of financing for development is to try and create the financing that we produces this change in the real productive
Jan Kregel:strategies and the productive sectors of developing countries so that it's no longer a question of being dependent on the chocolate
Jan Kregel:bunnies that you're selling for Easter, and you're going to be selling products in which you have the possibility of increasing
Jan Kregel:the productivity of your domestic labor force, increasing your ability to export, and with that, your ability to meet the
Jan Kregel:borrowing that you get in terms of the external financing.
Julians Amboko:The leadership of the G20 is now under Brazil.
Julians Amboko:The African Union is also now a member.
Julians Amboko:What can we expect, especially around this conversation around debt?
Julians Amboko:José Antonio Ocampo: Well, I really hope there is something more ambitious.
Julians Amboko:In the India G20 statement by the Heads of State, there was absolutely nothing new about debt.
Julians Amboko:It was only the common framework.
Julians Amboko:Which is something that was created in December 2020 and had been used in a very difficult way by
Julians Amboko:only four African countries with long negotiations.
Julians Amboko:So it's a framework that doesn't work.
Julians Amboko:So it has to be improved significantly or launch a different initiative.
Julians Amboko:I think for the sub Saharan African countries, more, more like the multilateral debt relief of 2005 is probably the solution.
Julians Amboko:So that's in the hands of Brazil.
Julians Amboko:Uh, I think Brazil is also more open to, let's say, to solutions, uh, in that regard.
Julians Amboko:It's in the hands of South Africa, which is the G20 host next year, and it's in the hands of the African Union as a member of
Julians Amboko:G20, and of course, it's in the hands of the United Nations for its Conference on Financing for Development next year in Spain.
Julians Amboko:The fourth United Nations Conference on Financing for Development, which followed the one that took place in Addis Ababa in 2015.
Julians Amboko:10.
Julians Amboko:Close for us, please.
Jan Kregel:Well, basically, you've got the problem, as I mentioned before, of trying to link these discussions back
Jan Kregel:down to what your domestic strategies are going to be.
Jan Kregel:So we're going to look at the debt crisis.
Jan Kregel:Let's say we managed to eliminate completely all of the debt.
Jan Kregel:Well, we've heard frequently that many https: otter.
Jan Kregel:ai
Jan Kregel:Oh, suddenly, it comes back.
Jan Kregel:So the question is not only resolving the crisis, but making sure that these crises don't repeat themselves over again.
Jan Kregel:So, yes, we would like to have a very strong position on providing debt relief in order to make the short term recovery possible,
Jan Kregel:but there's also this question of medium and long term strategies.
Jan Kregel:The strategies have to be changed.
Jan Kregel:Otherwise, we're going to continue to do this over and over again, and we're going to be in a position where very few
Jan Kregel:of the countries who are currently In that difficulties are going to be able to increase their domestic national incomes
Jan Kregel:and their domestic purchasing power for their domestic citizens without running back into the same problems.
Julians Amboko:Thank you so much for your time.
Julians Amboko:Jan Kregel and Jose Antonio Ocampo, who I spoke to in Ghana at the ideas conference on African
Julians Amboko:debt and the global financial architecture.
Julians Amboko:Please do check out the show notes for more details, including a link.
Julians Amboko:to the great presentations made at the conference.
Julians Amboko:Next time on Economics from the South.
Ahilan Kadirgamar:I'm really concerned about the next generations.
Julians Amboko:I'll be exploring what it means for a country when it defaults on its sovereign
Julians Amboko:debt as happened in May 22 in Sri Lanka.
Ahilan Kadirgamar:And if you just look at even the growth figures for Sri Lanka, It's going to be 2028 before
Ahilan Kadirgamar:we, our GDP returns to the level that it was in 2018.
Ahilan Kadirgamar:So we've definitely lost a decade, but it's more like two decades that we are looking at, because
Ahilan Kadirgamar:there was no growth during that whole decade.
Ahilan Kadirgamar:Now the social impact of that is that there is increasing unemployment, livelihoods have been disrupted,
Ahilan Kadirgamar:youth have no future other than to maybe migrate.
Julians Amboko:Thanks for listening to Economics from the South from the International Development Economics Associates.
Julians Amboko:Please do share with your networks, we'd really appreciate it.
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Julians Amboko:I'm Julian Sambaco.
Julians Amboko:Pennydale is a producer.
Julians Amboko:The concept is by Charles Aboukri.
Julians Amboko:And CP Chandra Secka and at Tiernan Domo of the International Development Economics Associates.
Julians Amboko:Check out the show notes for links to the Ideas website where you can find lots of really insightful articles and
Julians Amboko:research papers on the issue of debt and so much more.
Julians Amboko:And you can also sign up to the IDEAS newsletter.
